Overcoming Co-Founder Conflicts Live Coaching Conversation (With Marsha Acker)

1 00:00:00
Speaker 1: You know what I'm having, the experience of it.

00:00:03
This moment is really just appreciating you, slowing down

00:00:07
and being willing to unpack and explore something before it gets

00:00:13
to.

00:00:13
We sometimes call it the small sea kind of irritation or

00:00:19
friction versus, you know, the big sea conflict, where the

00:00:24
stakes are high.

00:00:25
You know both parties are triggered and super annoyed.

00:00:28
I think there's value.

00:00:31
I wish more of us spent the time to unpack and focus on the

00:00:36
tiny little things, because I think it's those interventions

00:00:40
that allow us to just do something different for the

00:00:42
moment.

00:00:43
Speaker 2: So welcome to the Product Agility podcast, the

00:00:46
missing link between agile and product.

00:00:48
The purpose of this podcast is to share practical tips,

00:00:51
strategies and stories from world-class thought leaders and

00:00:54
practitioners.

00:00:55
Why, I hear you ask.

00:00:57
I want to increase your knowledge and your motivation to

00:01:01
experiment so that together we can create ever more successful

00:01:05
products.

00:01:05
My name is Ben Maynard and I'm your host.

00:01:08
What has driven me for the last decade to bridge the gap

00:01:12
between agility and product is a deep-rooted belief that people

00:01:15
and products evolving together can achieve mutual excellence.

00:01:19
Hello and welcome to what is a first for the Product Agility

00:01:23
podcast a live coaching demonstration.

00:01:25
I'm going to smash this book and I'm just going to lean to

00:01:28
one side here, Grab it and hold up to the camera so the audience

00:01:32
can see this Build your Model for Leading

00:01:34
Change, a fantastic book, which we explored in some depth in

00:01:38
episode number one, which I urge you all to go and listen to if

00:01:41
you haven't already heard it, because it will set you up

00:01:44
nicely for what we're going to be doing today, which is a live

00:01:46
coaching demonstration based around some of the key tenets of

00:01:50
the book.

00:01:51
Now, whilst we were getting ready for this conversation,

00:01:54
we're exploring the potential obstacles in the way that I

00:01:58
communicate with people that I'd like to overcome.

00:02:00
Just to let everybody know that the topic that I'm going to be

00:02:04
talking about I have chosen.

00:02:06
It's something which is important to me.

00:02:07
The people that are involved Within this context.

00:02:11
It would have given their permission for this episode to

00:02:13
be released, obviously with confidentiality.

00:02:16
It's not really being such a thing when you're willing to

00:02:19
open yourself up and share it on the internet in such a way.

00:02:23
I would ask that if anything I say, anything we go into, means

00:02:27
something to you, if it can erase something you would like

00:02:30
to talk about one-on-one with someone, then please do find

00:02:34
somebody to talk to me.

00:02:35
I know, marsha, if everybody could contact you, or just

00:02:37
someone.

00:02:38
If something comes up that you feel is important to you don't

00:02:41
let that sit.

00:02:41
Please do go and find someone to talk to.

00:02:44
Is there any other serious stuff?

00:02:48
I should mention Marsha before we go on to the next one.

00:02:50
Speaker 1: I love the one that you just mentioned.

00:02:51
I love the idea of just tapping someone.

00:02:54
It could be a support mechanism Brilliant.

00:02:59
Speaker 2: Well, this is going to be a first for me, a second

00:03:02
for Marsha, and something which I hope you all get a lot from.

00:03:06
I remember when I was training as a professional coach, I

00:03:09
couldn't find any really valuable coaching demonstrations

00:03:13
online.

00:03:13
I'm sure there's a few that exist, but actually I found it a

00:03:16
bit of a challenge.

00:03:17
I hope that, if you are considering a coaching journey

00:03:20
of any description, that this is of some value to you, in

00:03:22
addition to the value that our listeners are just going to find

00:03:25
anyway.

00:03:25
Now, marsha, as a little bit of a lead into the coaching

00:03:29
conversation, could you explain to our audience what kind of

00:03:32
problems are presented to you when you're having these

00:03:35
coaching conversations and why do people find them useful?

00:03:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a lot of times.

00:03:39
So using structural dynamics is kind of a core to the model for

00:03:44
how I coach and how really all of us team catapult coach.

00:03:47
What sits underneath that model is the perspective and the

00:03:53
theory that really any time we're working in systems whether

00:03:58
that's a family system or work system, any time where there's

00:04:02
more than one person, we would call that a system of people the

00:04:07
dynamics that emerge in systems are either moving us forward or

00:04:12
holding us back in some way.

00:04:14
I think they often show up as something that we might just

00:04:19
might get under our skin a little bit or we might be a

00:04:22
little frustrated by.

00:04:23
I often say one of the key flags that something's happening

00:04:29
in the system is when you start having the same conversation

00:04:32
over and over again and you think to yourself wait a minute,

00:04:35
I thought we already talked about this or I thought we had

00:04:37
this conversation.

00:04:38
We're fresh off the holidays, so many of us might have a

00:04:41
backlog of things Having spent time with families.

00:04:44
Family systems can be notorious for some of those issues, but I

00:04:50
think the situations that emerge are really great to explore

00:04:54
because when we're seeing something in a system that we

00:04:58
don't like, there will often be a part that we're playing in it.

00:05:03
I think that's the place where it would be so much easier to

00:05:07
just make it about the other person and about them getting it

00:05:10
wrong or being difficult or I want them to be fixed.

00:05:16
But there's often a part that we're playing which I think is

00:05:21
sometimes the harder piece to look at, about what's the aspect

00:05:25
.

00:05:25
Anyway, that's really why we bring it into coaching

00:05:27
conversations you made a note about when you were learning

00:05:32
coaching conversations.

00:05:33
I'll just put a caveat on the end of this, because if

00:05:36
anybody's in the midst of a coaching certification program,

00:05:40
chances are we might not model here today a purely coaching

00:05:46
model that has the coach stay purely in just asking questions.

00:05:52
You might find me bringing in a little bit of content and

00:05:55
asking you to think about or reflect on it.

00:05:57
Just to caveat for anybody.

00:05:59
Great point.

00:06:00
Speaker 2: You're absolutely correct.

00:06:01
You're absolutely right because this isn't going to be like a

00:06:03
standard ICF style.

00:06:04
Yes, sure, a coaching skill is going to be somewhat different.

00:06:08
I think when people say, well, how enough does this relate to

00:06:12
product and agility?

00:06:12
The types of communication issues that exist are so

00:06:17
prevalent between product teams and agile teams, or even within

00:06:21
product teams, or just within agile teams, or within products

00:06:24
and agile teams, and they're seeing your management and their

00:06:26
leadership.

00:06:27
We're all experiencing these conversations that we just don't

00:06:30
seem to ever be happy with.

00:06:32
That's the topic that I'm going to be.

00:06:34
The problem that I'm going to be bringing up today is

00:06:36
something which I know is very prevalent in many organizations,

00:06:39
in many teams, and something that I'm experiencing right now

00:06:41
in my life.

00:06:42
Someone in my life, marsha.

00:06:44
I need to remember not to be the coachy person in this and

00:06:48
not to ask the coach type conversations.

00:06:49
I will just ask and let me just say, coachy way, but where do

00:06:55
we begin?

00:06:57
Speaker 1: Well, Ben.

00:06:57
So let's just start with a little bit of the challenge that

00:07:01
you're noticing.

00:07:02
Maybe you can give me just a little bit of context of what

00:07:07
might be happening.

00:07:08
And you're having this experience of something

00:07:11
recurring, or it's starting to make its way into your awareness

00:07:14
about something that's happening.

00:07:17
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is in relation to my start-up.

00:07:20
We've been working on an idea now for 18 months.

00:07:24
We're hitting a point where things are getting real and

00:07:27
we're really working towards getting that first MV designed

00:07:30
and then out in the wild, and we're super excited.

00:07:33
But what I've noticed is that there is a particular

00:07:37
conversation, or maybe a collection of conversations,

00:07:41
which I seem to be revisiting and I believe are revisiting.

00:07:47
Maybe it's in my head, but I do feel like we have similar

00:07:51
conversations time and time again around stuff that is maybe

00:07:55
slightly more technical than it is conceptual.

00:07:59
So I have a technological background.

00:08:01
I'm not as technically minded as I used to be, but I still got

00:08:05
a passion for it.

00:08:06
I have a decent understanding of some of the key elements of

00:08:09
it and there are certain things which I'm really keen just to

00:08:12
get known and get understood.

00:08:13
When we talk about the more technical aspects, I don't feel

00:08:19
like I'm able to put myself across in the right way, because

00:08:22
it just feels like we're looping background and the

00:08:25
things that we get stuck on are as a misunderstanding.

00:08:29
I'll be talking about something technical, it'll then be taken

00:08:32
as something conceptual and then it'll start talking about

00:08:36
trying to solve the conceptual thing, and I'm just wanting to

00:08:38
talk about the technical thing, and it just seems to get stuck

00:08:42
in this loop every now and again .

00:08:46
Speaker 1: So one of the things that I'm hearing is that there's

00:08:49
a technical side and a conceptual side that are playing

00:08:52
out in your conversations.

00:08:53
Can you say a little bit more about what you mean by technical

00:08:58
?

00:08:58
What's that look like it's?

00:09:00
Speaker 2: conversations such as do we go for a managed

00:09:04
WordPress host or a cloud computing solution and we

00:09:08
install a managed WordPress on our own?

00:09:10
There are certain plugins or extensions that we're probably

00:09:16
going to do well for using initially for the MVP, because

00:09:19
it saves us time, and I want to understand the technical

00:09:24
limitations or the sensibility of some of those plugins.

00:09:27
So, particularly around a topic we call verification, there's

00:09:31
certain things we want to verify .

00:09:32
I have an idea in my mind about how they could be implemented

00:09:35
and I put together a proof of concept which kind of worked.

00:09:37
But I would like our developer to actually run through that and

00:09:40
say, yes, it would work, it wouldn't.

00:09:42
You've got the wrong end of a stick.

00:09:43
Maybe it would work this way.

00:09:44
But when we talk about verification, it seems to loop

00:09:47
background, to be on the manual element of the manual process

00:09:51
element of the verification, rather than the technical

00:09:53
implementation.

00:09:54
I've said a few times I know it's the implementation aspect,

00:09:58
but then it just comes back to the verification process.

00:10:01
I feel Does that help?

00:10:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit.

00:10:03
I'm curious about what's the experience like for you in those

00:10:09
conversations.

00:10:10
So you've said a little bit about in my language.

00:10:14
What I would say is that it's maybe feeling like your point of

00:10:18
view isn't being heard, but how would you say it?

00:10:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say that maybe the frustration comes

00:10:25
from the fact I don't feel like I'm understood.

00:10:27
I think he's hearing, but I don't feel like I'm understood.

00:10:32
So maybe that's kind of on me and that's how I feel.

00:10:36
And then I get to a point where I start to question myself and

00:10:40
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, actually I quite enjoy

00:10:42
the question of stuff because then I begin to wonder well, is

00:10:45
it really that important?

00:10:46
I'm not that technical.

00:10:47
Maybe this is actually something which is just, we

00:10:50
talked about it, but that's fine , you've got it absolutely wrong

00:10:53
.

00:10:53
It's going to be this, it's going to be as you say, and

00:10:57
that's what happens.

00:10:58
So I go from the frustration of not feeling understood to then

00:11:01
wondering is it even worth bringing it up, and should I

00:11:04
just kind of gloss over it, or should we just move on?

00:11:07
Speaker 1: And can I just say for a moment, I think that this

00:11:10
is we're so many of us get in our conversations In structural

00:11:15
dynamics.

00:11:15
We would call it sort of speaking in two different

00:11:19
languages.

00:11:19
So it's that middle layer of communication domains Impossibly

00:11:25
it's a hypothesis, because I wouldn't really know unless I

00:11:29
was listening to your sentence by sentence dialogue, but my

00:11:33
sense is that there's two different communication domains

00:11:37
at play.

00:11:38
So there's three power in the language of getting things done,

00:11:41
affect, care and concern for others.

00:11:44
And meaning, which is purpose, data connection.

00:11:49
So it's possible that there are two different communication

00:11:52
domains, that you might be speaking one of those and your

00:11:55
co-founder speaking another, and it creates that experience of

00:11:59
feeling like we're just talking past one another.

00:12:02
Some truth as I say that what comes up for you.

00:12:09
Speaker 2: Relates to what we have said before about me

00:12:12
talking in meaning, and maybe that's what it is, but maybe,

00:12:15
yeah, I think we are Talking past each other.

00:12:20
I can think, I can see that that would make sense to me.

00:12:25
I, yeah then wonder how do we, yeah, what, what does it take

00:12:35
Right to then actually have a conversation where we don't just

00:12:39
kind of zoom past each other but we actually kind of meet,

00:12:42
yeah, and can move forward, because I guess that this is a,

00:12:47
this pattern will repeat itself.

00:12:48
So actually having an idea of some things to experiment with,

00:12:52
to then overcome, that would be beneficial.

00:12:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, so one of the ways you know in structural

00:13:00
dynamics is to think about becoming trilingual.

00:13:02
So there will be One domain that we will tend to just

00:13:06
default to it's if we were to stack rank them.

00:13:09
It's the place that we're most comfortable.

00:13:11
We go there frequently.

00:13:13
So meaning you know might be yours, your co-founder might be

00:13:19
in affector power, and the place to go first would be to start

00:13:25
to bridge to the domain that you Guess your co-founder might be

00:13:31
in, because so here's my question, here's a another

00:13:35
question for you, and you'd be Hypothesizing at the moment, but

00:13:39
I'm curious about what you think your co-founders

00:13:42
experience might be in those conversations.

00:13:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be a total guess.

00:13:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, you wouldn't know until you asked.

00:13:50
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, yeah, and mate, like, don't, don't

00:13:54
touch me for this.

00:13:55
I my guess is that there's a baby, a slight element of I

00:14:03
don't know like confirmation bias, a little bit, like there's

00:14:08
the technical stuff, like we're in slightly different levels in

00:14:11
relation to that and that we're gonna.

00:14:16
When any conversation we're on different levels.

00:14:18
Often we just hook on to the stuff that we yeah, we make, we

00:14:22
push up a ladder of influence, we kind of all of our assumption

00:14:25
beliefs have kind of played out and then we get to an action

00:14:27
which is based on the data we've chosen to take from that

00:14:29
situation.

00:14:30
So I think when we're talking about verification process and

00:14:33
that verification element I'm talking about technically, how

00:14:36
do we implement like fine-grained permissions Early

00:14:39
on in that process and what he's picking up is that the whole

00:14:43
verification process.

00:14:44
So I wonder if he doesn't really he just gets annoyed at me,

00:14:49
maybe because he doesn't know what I'm talking about, or maybe

00:14:51
he doesn't even realize that we are wishing past Because I'm

00:14:55
I'm not, I'm not facing it into it.

00:14:57
So he's never articulated any Frustration or annoyance with

00:15:03
this, is always been very cordial and very cool with me

00:15:06
when I keep on bringing this stuff up.

00:15:08
So I mean he's not, I think.

00:15:11
I think he would mention it to me if it was annoying him.

00:15:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I'm having the experience of it

00:15:18
this moment is really just appreciating you, slowing down

00:15:23
and being willing to unpack and explore Something before it gets

00:15:29
to.

00:15:29
We sometimes call it the, the small C kind of irritation or

00:15:35
friction versus, you know, the big C conflict, where the stakes

00:15:40
are high.

00:15:41
You know both parties are triggered and super annoyed, and

00:15:44
so I think there's value.

00:15:46
I wish more of us spent the time to unpack and focus on the

00:15:52
tiny little things, because I think it's those interventions

00:15:56
that allow us to just do something different in the

00:15:58
moment.

00:15:58
So, just an acknowledgement of you know, taking something like

00:16:02
this and beginning to just do some reflection on it.

00:16:05
I here's a question for you as you think about the scenario.

00:16:10
I'm hearing, possibly not feeling understood on your

00:16:13
behalf, a hypothesis that your co-founder and you too might be

00:16:19
sort of diving into making your own points every time, like the

00:16:23
place that you're familiar with, and one of the things that can

00:16:27
be really helpful in this is locating curiosity about those

00:16:33
assumptions that each of us will be making.

00:16:37
So one way is to speak in that language.

00:16:40
So, for example, if your co-founder speaks primarily in

00:16:43
power, rather than starting an explanation deep in meaning, you

00:16:49
might move to more curiosity about the other's perspective

00:16:54
and to do it from a place of power, where we're inquiring

00:16:57
about things.

00:16:59
What's the outcome and what are we looking for, and what would

00:17:04
it look like to produce that or make it look like a quality

00:17:08
product?

00:17:08
So what comes up as I say those things?

00:17:12
Speaker 2: One thing I have thought about every now and

00:17:13
again is if we are some level secretly in competition with

00:17:19
each other.

00:17:20
So not directly related to what you're saying, but it popped

00:17:24
into my head when you were going through that is it secretly?

00:17:27
Maybe we're kind of jostling for position and maybe there's

00:17:30
an element of like neither of us wanting to admit that we're

00:17:33
wrong with something because we there's, much as we respect and

00:17:38
love each other.

00:17:38
I think maybe there's an element of not wanting to seem

00:17:43
inferior, and I don't think it's about the other person winning.

00:17:46
I think maybe it's more about sometimes maybe it is even just

00:17:49
all about me.

00:17:50
Maybe I'm worried about kind of protecting my own sense of

00:17:53
something here rather than him, because it is only hypotheses,

00:17:58
as you mentioned a few of you.

00:18:00
A lot of these things are hypotheses, but perhaps we are

00:18:03
secretly in competition, or I view it as I'm secretly in

00:18:05
competition and I think maybe I've lost some of my curiosity

00:18:11
and empathy in certain situations and perhaps that's

00:18:15
been the root or part of the cause of it.

00:18:20
Speaker 1: So one of the things that I'm curious about as you

00:18:24
reflect on the situation you've said, you know there are places

00:18:29
where you're feeling not quite understood and I think that if

00:18:34
we hold the perspective that actually the system is kind of

00:18:36
mirroring something to us, I'm curious, and this is a heart

00:18:40
like this is a this can be, I think, a really hard question

00:18:43
for all of us to look at, but I'm wondering if there might be

00:18:47
a place where you are not understanding the other or we're

00:18:50
not seeking to understand.

00:18:53
Speaker 2: I think so.

00:18:55
I think it's and I say it's talking as a like, as a founder.

00:19:00
It's someone that's getting something off the ground.

00:19:02
It's he's spent a lot of time in thought land trying to kind

00:19:07
of work through these things in your mind and when you get to a

00:19:10
point where you want to see them manifested in some way, and I

00:19:12
think that then that creates a pressure to make decisions and

00:19:18
to get things done.

00:19:19
And I think that then that to what extent I feel that pressure

00:19:24
maybe strips away from my ability to take the time to then

00:19:27
really understand the other person's situation and their

00:19:30
perspective and their point of view on things.

00:19:32
And I think that there's we definitely feel the excitement

00:19:38
of getting closer and I definitely feel some element of

00:19:43
wanting to make sure of of you know, of really knowing about as

00:19:49
much as I'm capable of knowing in relation to certain things.

00:19:52
And I wonder if that's where, actually, going back to the

00:19:55
original kind of presenting problem, is that the some of it

00:20:00
is me being concerned of the implementability that's even a

00:20:04
word of what I'm thinking, what we'd like to do, versus how much

00:20:08
of it.

00:20:09
Is it me just really wanting to understand how it will be done?

00:20:14
And then I feel the.

00:20:15
I feel the pressure, the excitement.

00:20:16
I've just kind of gotten a slightly detrimental kind of

00:20:20
loop.

00:20:20
I'm just seeking to know, not knowing, trying to get

00:20:24
understood don't feel like I'm understood and just getting

00:20:27
caught in that loop which is just feeding itself.

00:20:29
Perhaps.

00:20:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, could be.

00:20:31
One of the other things structurally that I'm hearing

00:20:35
that might be at play is how operating systems weave their

00:20:40
way in.

00:20:41
So the operating systems are the way in which we interact

00:20:44
with the others in our system, and so open system is more

00:20:48
collaborative.

00:20:49
We're seeking to hear all voices.

00:20:50
Close system is more less collaborative it's.

00:20:55
You know, it might be something like I if I'm feeling my area

00:20:59
of expertise is the technical side, I might make moves from

00:21:03
closed system, really trying to bring that in and really not

00:21:07
seeking input from others.

00:21:09
Random system is more innovation , creativity and autonomy.

00:21:12
So random system might be places where you and your

00:21:15
co-founder find yourselves off in your own areas of expertise,

00:21:19
doing things and then coming back together and for certain

00:21:22
pieces, but more autonomy.

00:21:23
So so one thing that might be at play in this and co-founding

00:21:29
is is both exciting and it generates high stakes.

00:21:33
I mean, there's there's a lot at stake from a really good

00:21:36
perspective.

00:21:36
But one of the other things that might be at play, in

00:21:40
addition to the, the domain that you're speaking in, is the way

00:21:43
that you're communicating with one another.

00:21:45
So I'm curious about where you find yourselves predominantly in

00:21:51
the operating systems between open, closed and random.

00:21:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's in my mind .

00:21:56
It's trying to get understand that difference between, I think

00:21:58
, random and closed.

00:22:00
Because, like, for example, I went off and did some proof of

00:22:02
concepts, I was just noodling around, trying some things out,

00:22:06
trying to figure out what I think could work, and that was

00:22:08
kind of random.

00:22:11
I suppose I was kind of innovative, doing some ideas,

00:22:13
and then we come back together but then trying to seek

00:22:18
consensus in that kind of open system by collaborating and

00:22:22
coming up to a point, rather than doing it in a closed way

00:22:25
almost.

00:22:26
So I think it was kind of random to open when, yeah, when,

00:22:33
maybe for both it could have been random to close.

00:22:36
There's some areas where he's really strong and just kind of

00:22:40
making, just make the decision, because trust you on this.

00:22:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and sometimes it can be that closed

00:22:49
system is the system that can be used.

00:22:51
It can help set you both up for success.

00:22:53
So closed system can set some boundaries and parameters, like

00:22:56
we're going to go off and do this in the example that you're

00:22:59
giving of the conversation that you're repeating, even putting

00:23:03
some closed system parameters on the way in which you might want

00:23:06
to talk differently about it.

00:23:07
So introducing the topic, saying you know let's take some

00:23:12
time to explore this and I really want to understand, can

00:23:16
be making a move in closed system that can open you up to a

00:23:19
more open system, more of a dialogic conversation.

00:23:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, I find that really useful, because I it's

00:23:27
because, yeah, the understanding of role and what you bring is

00:23:29
one thing, but I think that what you're talking about random,

00:23:32
open and close I think is really useful.

00:23:34
Yeah, and I think understanding in when is it closed and what

00:23:38
are we making decisions on or not is really yeah is really

00:23:44
useful.

00:23:44
No, we'd never want, and I feel like maybe he's felt like

00:23:49
sometimes.

00:23:50
But just to say, yes, ben, go ahead of it through exasperation

00:23:53
rather than anything else.

00:23:56
Oh my God, shut up about it.

00:23:58
You know, I mean, that's all I feel about.

00:24:02
I'm too.

00:24:02
I'm like God, keep it, just get over it and move on.

00:24:04
Yeah, I seem to get stuck.

00:24:06
So, yeah, I think that, yeah, that find that very useful.

00:24:10
Speaker 1: I'm curious about, as we've talked through this,

00:24:13
where you're at in your thinking about the conversation that you

00:24:18
and your founder are circling on.

00:24:21
Speaker 2: I would like to, without what does sound mean

00:24:27
about, but I would like to try and have it again almost and see

00:24:31
if we do end up back in the loop.

00:24:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:24:33
Speaker 2: And so that I can just try and zoom out and

00:24:36
observe what's happening and then better say, okay, right,

00:24:39
right, okay, yeah.

00:24:39
So I'm definitely I am definitely in this instance, you

00:24:42
know, behaving in a certain way and I'm definitely not being

00:24:45
curious, and so I'm going to take it, I'm going to take some

00:24:47
opportunity to take a moment out and be a bit more curious and

00:24:53
to maybe also point out about what I think I'm seeing and also

00:24:57
how I'm feeling and what I'm trying to get from it, because I

00:24:59
think that that you're having that data fresh, yeah, be

00:25:05
interesting, or I just yeah, or I might just, yeah, just bring

00:25:09
it up and say, like you know, I've had this conversation a few

00:25:10
times and deal with it that way .

00:25:12
I'm not I'm not sure, but I think I've definitely got, I'm

00:25:17
definitely resolved to being more curious and having more

00:25:20
empathy and just kind of, and maybe I'm just relieving some of

00:25:23
the pressure and I'm definitely keen to have us have the

00:25:29
conversation about, you know, when is it open, when is it

00:25:31
closed and when is it random.

00:25:32
Yeah, maybe, maybe the most very little that's closed right

00:25:35
now, but that will change over time.

00:25:37
But I just be really keen to have that conversation so that

00:25:40
we can, we know when we're playing to our strengths and we

00:25:43
know when we can.

00:25:44
Yeah, what we're trying to achieve a bit.

00:25:45
Yeah, how would, how would how we're going to achieve what

00:25:48
we're trying to achieve?

00:25:50
Speaker 1: I think one way of course we're recording this so

00:25:54
your co-founder might listen in and know ahead of time but I

00:25:58
think one way to enter the conversation that might change

00:26:02
the nature of how it unfolds would be for you to do a bystand

00:26:07
, just like you've done with me here today, to name what it's

00:26:11
like for you, like what you're noticing, what you're catching

00:26:14
sight of, what the experiences that you're having, and then ask

00:26:20
what's the experience that your partner's having in the

00:26:24
conversation?

00:26:24
What do they notice?

00:26:26
What's you know?

00:26:27
What are, what curiosities do you have?

00:26:29
And so that in and of itself, can really just simply change

00:26:35
the way the conversation starts out.

00:26:39
Speaker 2: And we are.

00:26:40
I'll consider that.

00:26:42
I like it.

00:26:43
I like the idea of doing that.

00:26:44
Yeah, I'm just, yeah, contemplating what?

00:26:50
Yeah?

00:26:52
Speaker 1: What's happening for you as you think about that.

00:26:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel that there's, I've got options and

00:26:58
I'm struggling to, I think in the moment, kind of figure out

00:27:03
which one I'd like to try.

00:27:06
I think because I haven't, I think because I haven't had the

00:27:10
conversation almost about having the conversation about it,

00:27:14
which is strange.

00:27:15
I think I need to maybe and I always say I need to take some

00:27:18
time out and reflect because this is, yeah, it may seem like

00:27:23
a yeah, maybe like a trivial little thing, but I think that

00:27:25
actually, if we can fix it, it will, it will pay dividends,

00:27:29
yeah, but I'm just, yeah, I'm curious Because if I I think

00:27:33
running through it and bring that up again, like I don't,

00:27:36
I've gone off that idea, I don't like that anymore.

00:27:37
I, because I just kind of feel it's, it's a bit mean.

00:27:42
I don't know in any way that I could bring it up, that wouldn't

00:27:44
be all contrived and planned out, and I just say I kind of

00:27:47
don't like that.

00:27:48
I prefer just kind of leaning into it and being like right,

00:27:50
okay, like this is what?

00:27:53
How have you found our conversation around around this?

00:27:57
Tell me how you've been feeling about it, not in a scary, but

00:28:02
help me understand a bit more and I can, I can share some of

00:28:05
it too, and I wonder if that would be a nice way, a much more

00:28:09
kind of me way of going about it, and also if I think about

00:28:12
how we would want to operate as a, as a partnership, also help

00:28:17
how I think our partnership will evolve.

00:28:20
It'll be, I know it'll be fruitful and I believe it'll be

00:28:23
successful.

00:28:23
But I think that actually being able to take that time out to

00:28:27
label stuff and talk about it honestly, I think it may be how

00:28:29
I would like relationship to grow and evolve.

00:28:31
So maybe I'll try and have a chat with him about doing that

00:28:35
and kind of modeling some of that behaviour between us.

00:28:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's on something.

00:28:39
Yeah, do you feel like you have a path forward for now?

00:28:43
Speaker 2: I do, I do.

00:28:44
You know it's funny when having these types of conversations, I

00:28:49
suppose people always think that coaching has to be these

00:28:52
big.

00:28:52
You try to get over big obstacles.

00:28:54
But I think, like you were saying, actually sometimes it's

00:28:57
the little things that actually you know you can get over.

00:29:01
If you can get over them, that stops the, that stops the bigger

00:29:03
things becoming bigger things, and it's been very useful for me

00:29:07
to really think through a lot of this, so I haven't taken it

00:29:10
before.

00:29:10
So, yeah, thank you for your questions and your and your

00:29:14
expertise, marsha, it's much appreciated.

00:29:17
Speaker 1: You're welcome.

00:29:17
I just think that it's something that I wish all of us

00:29:21
did more of and I do.

00:29:24
You know, oftentimes I don't start working with co-founders

00:29:28
and partners until they're much further along and they've spent

00:29:34
two, three, four years sweeping a lot of things under the rug,

00:29:38
and then by that time they get to four or five years.

00:29:41
And I don't think it's a question of whether relationship

00:29:45
challenges emerge in work partnerships.

00:29:48
I think it's just a matter of when and how big they get.

00:29:50
But when they get to the place where it's super hard and the

00:29:55
stakes are so high, it's not that people can't work through

00:29:59
them, it just takes longer.

00:30:00
So I just a huge acknowledgement about catching

00:30:05
sight of things that might seem small and trivial, and I

00:30:09
actually don't think they're small and trivial.

00:30:11
I think they're.

00:30:12
I think they're little flags that say hey, there's an

00:30:15
opportunity here to talk about it.

00:30:18
Be more intentional and use the small things to work through.

00:30:22
Speaker 2: So so if I can step out of the kind of coachy

00:30:25
position for a moment, yeah, I think it's really.

00:30:28
I think it's a really important lesson for people.

00:30:30
You know, I I say if I run through some scenarios, I can

00:30:34
think of the last 18 months, whether it is I've experienced

00:30:39
people within product teams who did deal with the small stuff.

00:30:43
They over seeming these small stuff and deal with it and have

00:30:46
the conversation, or they tried to have the conversations but

00:30:48
they never got anywhere, that the person never.

00:30:51
There was never any evidence that a person had been heard and

00:30:53
what that did was really detrimental.

00:30:55
I think of product teams and agile teams and actually their

00:31:01
inability to communicate or just to get over the expectations

00:31:06
that they have of each other and actually communicate clearly is

00:31:09
a is a big deal.

00:31:10
Or even, I think the I know some founders that I know who

00:31:15
are maybe really reliant upon other people, and I wonder if

00:31:20
it's because they, because they don't, they don't want to have

00:31:24
the harder conversations or what they've thought their fears

00:31:27
harder conversations, and I think there's always this

00:31:29
illusion.

00:31:31
I interviewed somebody yesterday called Evan about facilitation,

00:31:34
something that you know very well and it's not something that

00:31:38
I had made a note of it but I didn't bring it up.

00:31:39
But I think we've like dealing with these types of

00:31:42
communication challenges, opportunities as well as kind of

00:31:46
facilitation, is that people think it's just something we

00:31:49
should be able to do and it's just happening, it's going to be

00:31:52
easy and actually when you really think about it, you

00:31:54
really look into it, in order for these, these scenarios to

00:31:57
end up with something which everyone would deem as

00:31:59
successful, there's usually a whole heap of effort and time

00:32:02
that you need to put in to really lay the groundwork and

00:32:05
really do the self work to make sure that these opportunities,

00:32:08
you make the most of these opportunities.

00:32:09
It isn't, you know, I think it's too easy to think it's just

00:32:12
all like Beth dancing through, like fields of daisies holding

00:32:16
hands, but actually there's a whole ton of rigor and

00:32:19
professionalism that's required to make these things, these

00:32:21
situations, successful.

00:32:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would actually hold that clarity about

00:32:26
having.

00:32:27
I think we all need a model for how we work with conflicts.

00:32:30
I think we all need a model for how we work with behavior.

00:32:33
If this is the role that we're going to play, and it's in the

00:32:38
creating the model that I think you get really clear about how

00:32:42
you'd engage people.

00:32:43
So it's a big yes, it's a big follow from me about what you're

00:32:47
saying and that there's rigor and there's intentionality and

00:32:51
on the outside, you know, I think it might look like you

00:32:54
know, to somebody watching it.

00:32:55
I often say that about a facilitated session, just in

00:32:58
general, that if you were just observing it and somebody that

00:33:03
does it really well, I think you really wouldn't.

00:33:05
You just think, well, that was a really good meeting.

00:33:07
You would not understand necessarily the mechanics and

00:33:11
the intentionality around what's happening in the room.

00:33:14
I think the same is true of how we lead, where we get stuck,

00:33:18
how we work with conflicts.

00:33:19
It's all about that.

00:33:20
Speaker 2: It is, and I would recommend people check out

00:33:23
Marsha's book.

00:33:24
Build your model for leading change.

00:33:25
I believe that they yeah, maybe around this time the little

00:33:30
competition that we would have been running would have ended

00:33:32
and there'd be one lucky listener who would have won a

00:33:34
copy of the book which they're going to be lucky, lucky souls,

00:33:39
because it's an awesome book and I think it is as I mentioned in

00:33:41
the first episode.

00:33:41
You know it invokes, if you allow it to, invokes a lot of

00:33:46
self reflection and invokes you to do, and encourages you to do,

00:33:49
that self work which I think is one of the best parts about it

00:33:53
and I love the.

00:33:54
And I was talking to Steph the producer about this actually

00:33:57
today, because I caught her.

00:33:58
She brought reading the room David Cantor's book and I just

00:34:02
put it to one side and I kind of recognized it.

00:34:03
I was like, oh, you've got that .

00:34:06
And, yeah, we were saying how we both find it very exciting at

00:34:10
the opportunity to codify some of the interactions that we're

00:34:13
having and our communications systems and I think that is a

00:34:17
really fascinating thing.

00:34:18
That's something invaluable, I'd say, for anyone that's

00:34:21
listening.

00:34:22
Honestly, doesn't matter what role you're in, what context

00:34:25
you're in.

00:34:25
I think there's a huge amount of value in Marsha's book and

00:34:28
understanding more about all of this.

00:34:29
So, marsha, I want to say, yeah , thank you very much for one

00:34:33
for coaching me.

00:34:34
It was a delight and extraordinarily beneficial for

00:34:38
me and I really hope that those listening also.

00:34:41
You know there was something in there for you all as well.

00:34:43
I think, if nothing else, making a quick note of Marsha's

00:34:46
questions that she was asking and picking up on some of the

00:34:49
styles and some of the things that were done would probably do

00:34:52
a lot of us, a whole heap of good.

00:34:53
So, marsha, thank you very much for being so obliging with that

00:34:55
.

00:34:56
Speaker 1: Thanks, ben, and thanks for being willing to

00:34:58
share it live.

00:34:59
I think that that's.

00:35:00
I said this to you earlier.

00:35:02
I think there's a lot of courage and I think we all need

00:35:05
examples of how we think through these things.

00:35:07
We all need it, including me.

00:35:10
Speaker 2: Well, maybe, Marsha, maybe one day, I'll coach you on

00:35:12
something.

00:35:13
And yeah, again, thank you everyone for listening.

00:35:15
Come on this little journey, this little experiment, with us.

00:35:17
If you liked it and you would like more of these types of

00:35:20
things where I'm pouring up my soul, then by all means do let

00:35:25
us know on social media, because we're more than happy to

00:35:28
experiment and try new and different things.

00:35:30
So do let us know.

00:35:31
Anyway, perhaps we'll draw this one to a close, Marsha.

00:35:34
Again, thank you so much for coming on.

00:35:35
Everyone, thank you so much for listening and we'll see you

00:35:38
again next week.