Future Proofing Product Managers (With Magali Pelissier)

Welcome back everyone for episode two of Magalie Pellissier., Magalie, where your, surname, where in the world is that from? It's

French. Yeah, unfortunately nobody's perfect, right?

Oh no. My, my surname is also French.

Oh really? Oh yeah, that's true actually. I didn't notice, yeah.

Yeah, there you go. Yeah. But I haven't got any French family. That was a long time ago. Apparently. Anyway, welcome back everyone. Sorry for that slight detour into me wondering where Magalie's name came from. We are joined episode two with Magalie. The first episode we spoke about the deprecation of features. It was a enjoyable and very informative conversation. I urge you to listen to it if you have not done so already. If for no other reason, then you get the proper intro. To who Magli is but we won't be going through that again. Now, time is not on our side and we have a very important topic to talk about. Which is, being future fit and looking how do we future proof the product manager role? And Magli has written a book on this. Now Magli, the book is focusing on the kind of emerging trends and how maybe we'll move beyond some of those emerging trends. So if we're going to kick off and really explore your book what were the trends that you noticed that really kind of spurred you on to creating this book?

Well, so I think that's the thing. There's lots of trends and there was no single source with all the trends that affect product managers. And that's why I created the ebook is because I wanted to have it all together. So it's your single source of truth with everything. The key trends, I like to think about them in terms of people, processes and technology slash data. So in terms of people, I see two things. I see one, the product management role is changing. So we need to learn new skills and adapt to that as PM. Then the second thing in. The people side as well is around everything, diversity, equity, inclusion, taking into account ethics in the product, taking into account the new generations of users, Gen Z and all of that. Then on the process side, we see the emergence of product ops, products led growth, and all the ways that AI can help us build better products. I think that's super important to get on top of. And on the technology side, receivers, lots of technologies that are emerging and that are getting more mature as well. So ar vr, we are so focused a lot more on. On data is becoming the product now companies are monetizing data. We target developers as well. How do we make developers more, more productive? So there's a whole new stream of, technologies as well. So this is how I think of the trends and the key ones.

Who is your book aimed at?

It's really for curious people. You can be curious about, product management because I think now every company is a tech company. So most likely you have heard of product management or you have heard of its product mindsets. So even now, if you work in a company that is not proper, like you don't build a product, maybe you are tech enabled, you need to start thinking in terms of product. And then there's lots of talks about our product manager is going to disappear. You know, did Airbnb remove product managers? Do we need product managers? What I think is you need people who think with a product mindset. It doesn't have to be a product manager, like the person with that job title, but people need to think in product terms. Just like nowadays data literacy is expected. I think this kind of understanding of a product mindset is very important. So even if you're not a product manager, it's for you. And then at all levels if you're a senior leader, you need to plan the future. You need to think about how you're going to transform your organization to adapt to the future with AI. How's it going to change your workforce? So I think that's a good resource to read. But if you are new to product management as well, if you're trying to get into the field, we know it's a very attractive job. So lots of people are trying to move to product management. They need to Know which skills they need to be a right fit for the market as it is now, not the market as it was last year.

Out of all those trends you mentioned, which one do you think gets the most focus and which one do you think deserves much more focus?

I think the one that gets the most focus is AI, of course. When I looked at all the other technologies, which I listed in, the final chapter, you know, blockchain and AR, VR, and none of that. It used to be a fake people talked about, and now everybody's just talking about AI and generative AI. Is this the right thing to talk about? I think, it is, but not for the technology per se, but more for the. human aspects to it. How is this going to change the way we work and what do we do about it? Because we need to stop thinking about AI as, okay, this is cool, but, and, you know, look at all these things we can do, but more about how do I make myself, and if I'm a product leader, my organization, Ready for working with AI. And I think that's not something we, do a lot. So how are you going to prepare your workforce? I challenge all the. The leaders will listen to this podcast. Have you thought about it? Have you got a training plan to get your teams up to speed on AI and start using them? So, so I think it's a lot more about how will we get humans and the workforce. Ready and using AI as quickly as possible, as opposed to just, you know, AI is cool and I'm just using chat GPT every now and then.

that is a huge, but there's a huge potential benefit, which is,, let's say we're. Doing on a scale of one to 10. We work hard. We used to work our butts off to get our ideas or some initiative to level five, and then we're pretty exhausted. And then maybe we'd find some energy to get to a six or a seven, but if with the right use of generative AI, we can get it to a four or five with quite low effort, and then we can spend our time taking up to like up to an eight or a nine, because we've got a firm bedrock to begin with, I think there's a huge potential for, I mean, obviously, yeah, I mean, there's the whole potential for robots taken over and the deprecation of humans with it. But that as an aside, I think right now there's a huge amount of benefit to people really embracing, as you say, how do we use it to really enhance what we're doing and how are you as a product leader, people, product leaders who are listening, like what is your training approach to having people leverage the power of it? Cause if you're not doing it, somebody else will be.

Yeah, exactly. And your talents are going to leave as well because people want to work on exciting things. They want to have the right tools to do their work as well. So if they have to write everything manually and use like clunky interfaces and have it. No support for the work they do, they can't be productive and it's not fun being a, I mean, it's fun being a product manager, but it's not fun when it's hard and you have to write long documents. Some help really is good for people and for their productivity and their wellbeing. So

AI, as we know, gets a huge amount of focus, right? And some people talk about it I'm trying to get my kids using AI a lot for their homework. Just to give them that basis and give them more ideas of things they can go off and research. I mean, I think it's a huge amount of benefit doing it. And I encourage more and more people to, to use it in more and more inventive ways. And just to think of what, yeah, never be afraid of what you can ask it because you can be surprised. We've spoken the previous episode of my friend who asks it to coach him. In a particular coaching method, he gets a huge amount of value from it. And I just think, at the moment it's limited by the prompts we give it rather than what it's actually capable of. So with AI getting a huge focus tick in the box what's the thing that you think really deserves much, much more attention?

So I'm, going to maybe talk about. We are the trending in product, which is not actually very specific to product. It's everywhere in, even in your life, right? We've got new generations of users. I'm a millennial , so Gen I'm a millennial with you know on the Gen Z side. But then as Gen Z, it's gonna be gen and all of that. Is that, and then now , is that millennial did you

say? That's the thing, yeah. Millennial, is that right? Yes. Is it really? Yes.

This is because I don't want to admit I'm just a millennial. I'm like, yeah, I'm on the other side of the spectrum. But what does that mean? These new generations, that means two things. They are becoming all users. You have some brands actually in the UK that are starting to think, Oh, okay, so we need to like refresh our brand to target these new, customer base. So they're going to be your users. And we're going to be your colleagues as well, in, the U S like almost half of the of the working population is now of the workforce is now Gen Z, right? So they're going to be your colleagues and they may work in a different way as you do. So whatever your age and generation, you need to adapt to that from both sides. And what do we see? What do they think They have a different view of authority. For example, they have a very strong, concerns around the environment around the ethical side. So all of that is going to impact the way we build product. And nowadays we talk a lot and have a trend that we've been talking about for, years, right? Is diversity, equity and inclusion, but it's not enough to just say, Oh, we're diverse employer and we're trying to do that, right? It's how do you. Actually, implement that and make your product inclusive. And I think this is one of the big trends that, that we should be thinking about both for people we've worked with and also our users. How do we adapt to that new generation?

You mentioned the word equity there. And I think that there is a misunderstanding, I think predominantly within a certain demographic as to, the difference between equality and equity. And I think that there's, and I won't overshare here, but there's definitely a certain demographic of people that I've spoken to who think that the, what we're looking for in all of this is equality and treating everyone the same when that actually isn't the case. We're not talking about treating everyone the same way, we're talking about something different. So, I wonder, Maggie, could you explain to us, when we talk about diversity, inclusion and equity, what is it that you mean by equity and how does that fit into diversity and inclusion?

Yeah, exactly. Diversity is about having access to, and some people will, Put the exact words, but I'll use my own words to explain. So diversity is about making sure that you've got access to people from all sorts of backgrounds. So, in the UK, we've got, for example, protected characteristics like age, ethnicity, gender sexual orientation, and all of that. There are also things which aren't. Protected characteristics., like body shape. It's not a protected characteristic, but it's part of diversity, right? As well. So that's diversity. Equity, I'm going to touch on. And I say equity and not equality. Indeed. And then inclusion is about making sure that once you've hired, I'm going to take a work example. Once you've hired. Diverse people, they want to stay because if your environment isn't inclusive, if you exclude women in the way you address people, if you exclude minorities from some events, if you have on site events where people with a disability can't come, for example, it is not an inclusive environment. So it's, if you think about a marketing funnel, the inclusion part is more about retaining people. And now going back to the exact question, which is what's the difference between equity and equality? Well, equality is just what you said, which is giving the same thing to everyone. So if you actually search online you do equity versus equality and you go to the image search, you'll find lots of examples. I think They speak, these images speak a lot more than words, but if you give the same thing to everyone, because not everybody starts from the same place, we acknowledge nowadays privilege, right? There is a white privilege, there is let's confess, even a beauty privilege. I read that book which also mentions this. So not everybody starts from the same level. So if you give People the same thing, they're going to still end up not at the same level because they started from a different point. So equity is about not giving the right, the same thing to everyone, but giving them what they need to be at the same level.

I think it's really important. I think it's really important that we appreciate that not everyone is starting from the same place, the same position. And that just by treating everything equally doesn't mean we're being fair. I think it just means that we're not really, having an empathetic understanding of the situation that we're kind of faced with here. So with all of these trends, we're talking about future proofing product management. Is this about future proofing the, role? Is this about kind of future proofing ourselves as individuals? If you, look at all this together, and I'm assuming people are listening and wondering about the different trends. What are we saying here that people should be looking for considering all of these in order for them to project themselves, or is this for people that are kind of hiring product managers is what I should be looking for, is it both explain to me the future proofing idea a little bit more.

Yeah, I think it's both. I think it's at individual level, you know, questioning yourself and assessing your own product management style. Am I, so based on some of the trends we've just discussed, am I leveraging AI on a daily basis to make my work easier and to be more, am I doing this, am I taking into account the fact. The new generation may have different needs. So for different expectations in my product. So when I do some user research, for example, do I make a point of having a diverse sample of people? I talked to both in terms of companies and use cases and all of these things, but also in terms of maybe generation. So it's definitely an assessment you do at an individual level, but it also needs to happen at an organizational level because as a product leader, then you set the direction for wherever the company is going. So if I think about some other trends, which are more related to maybe processes, one is, okay, do I need to consider as a product leader setting up a product operations team? Okay. Do I need to start thinking in terms of a product led sales motion? My product maybe is B2B, do I need to consider now that to really take into account users and the fact that they. B2B products to be more like B2C, ie. To have a great user experience. Because we can tell, we can still tell nowadays the difference between a B2B product and a B2C product. We don't look the same. The experience is not the same, right? But now the lights are being blurred. It needs to be intentional. So I'm gonna have an initiative. Align my OKRs, for example, to make sure that we're going towards that direction. So there's definitely those things. And then in terms of thought leadership as well we say, okay what, do we need, how will product management change in the future to adapt to that? Because the modern product management principles that we're using today you know, They're already a few years old. So how will all of this change the way we do product management in the future?

When you were researching this, did you find that you had to challenge yourself to overcome any biases that you had?

I think it's obviously a bias in the book. When I look at the table of content, there's a very big section on people, because I'm very interested in the human side and diversity, equity, inclusion, and the product management job changing because I also, I help people get into product management. So I review the CV, I coach them. So, there is a bias already. I can tell when I look at the table of contents whereas for example yeah, there may be some, other aspects of product management, which I'm, less versed into. Is there something of a bias that I had to, I think when you write a book like this, it's, there's a combination of facts. And that's why I did a lot of research, but there's also a bit of opinion. So one of the things I. Mention more as a question is it going to be the end of user interfaces as we know them? So at the moment we've got apps with buttons and all of this. Well, guess what? ChatGPT only has a chat functionality and there's one button and the UI is much simpler. Will we need in the future, those traditional UIs that we've got now, or will everything be. A Czech like experience. And I think when it comes to that, it's more about, yeah, opinions and, I guess we'll see because, it's always things we don't know about the future. So it's always a prediction. But I have I have been challenged on, some of the, aspects and I'm really happy for people to come to me. And actually, you are part of the ones who. Give me feedback. So to really challenge what I wrote, because that's exactly what this ebook is about. Actually, it's about, okay, here are all the trends I've noticed. They're all here in a single place, but let's have a conversation.

Some of the topics that we've mentioned, I think for some people, they would probably invoke a certain level of pushback perhaps. Fear, perhaps thinking that some of the stuff around being equitable and DNI is some kind of dare I say it like a woke kind of campaign for it in my mind, that is people's biases. That's people's mental models being challenged. Would you have any advice for those people if they did kind of experience any of those emotions when going through those topics?

I, think it's. It's normal to feel those emotions. And I remember reading some books about like racism and how to be anti racist and all about during a Black Lives Matter, for example. And just when reading the book, I was also feeling very strongly about some of the things that were said. So acknowledging those emotions, I think it's important, it's okay to feel them. But then taking the time to think about, okay, what does that mean? What exactly do I feel is challenging me to the core? What do I disagree with? And then seeking different perspectives, talking to people about it., I don't think it's a good thing to suppress those emotions. They Are a good indicator for us, right? That's part actually of, being human. But be able to recognize that and then be curious and actually curiosity, for example, is one of the skills that I think is absolutely necessary for the workforce of tomorrow if there's one skill I want to hire for and that is difficult to train. It's curiosity, everything else, put somebody on a product management course, teach them how to use the product, like, you know, do some prompt design or prompt engineering courses and all of that. You can do all of that with curiosity. I think, and just want to, wanting to learn from other people, learn about things you don't know, recognize what you don't know being challenged and all of that, these are the skills that are going to be very important in the future.

Yeah. I find that really interesting because my curiosity, let me rephrase it. My ability to be curious definitely increased the more time I spent in education around how to coach. And I find that my natural levels of curiosity increased, but that was in, I don't think a direct correlation, which was causation, correlation with me better understanding who I am, I think. the more I understood who I am, the more I became ever more curious about other people. And so I wonder, teaching curiosity, if anyone's wondering, . You how can it be achieved? I'd really recommend exploring some education around coaching because it was coaching it's so much of it is listening and really listen to what people are saying and picking out contradictions or picking out assumptions and then kind of playing that back to people and I think it's a really solid way to really improve your listening skills and to increase that curiosity. Cause it is a, it's a hard one to learn, but I think it is something which you can, it's a skill you can develop. It's a muscle you can exercise and build over time.

Yeah, definitely., I think it's a good point.. It's a bit like, , emotional in intelligence. I'm sure you can train as well, but it's probably a bit more difficult than, I don't know, actually learning to cook or something. It got me thinking about another skill, which is empathy, which is like more like a trait and for example, for me being in a manager role really. Improved my empathy and I wish that when people start, , when they just fresh off uni or, you know, they start a new job, they could experience that what it feels like to be a manager first. So they, they've got that perspective and they build that empathy for the team. And then they understand better the dynamics. So putting yourself in this position really helps to understand what it really. It's about, and then when you are an individual contributor again, which maybe you are, when you start a career, you understand better what your manager is looking for.

You mentioned, Gen Z and being a Zillennial and millennials, and that there's some adaptation required from both sides. Do you think that perhaps that the Gen Z. Colleagues will be, requesting and expecting certain things, which will mean that from the other side, having to adapt, it will be things like learning more about empathy and having, learning how to develop an accurate empathetic understanding and working on curiosity. Do you think that's something that Gen Z are going to push for

yeah I think what's interesting is we're going to see the effect of the pandemic on these generations as well, because when the pandemic happened, well, I was working and for me, I was just working from home, but for them, it was critical years of their life, you know, when they're teenagers or they're just entering the workforce and that does affect the way they interact with the world. With people, you know, and the development of those social skills. So maybe, yes, things that we take for granted because we used to go to the office and make those connections with people, they haven't had that opportunity. And then they're going to be more curious about learning these and we're going to have to support that.. Ben: I agree. I've, yeah, I just really love what you were saying as well. You know, it takes adaptation from both sides. This isn't about just accepting things as truth and having, to say, well, you know, about what you're asking for there isn't going to happen. I think there is a, this is a fine balancing act and I can think of, you know, a particular client of mine who've really struggled. With the new people they're bringing in because they're failing to get a good adaptation from both sides of the equation. I think one side is generally expecting the other side to change more than the other side is willing to. But they're not willing to change themselves. So I think it's going to be a very interesting challenge. Talking about interesting, when you were researching the book, was there any particular piece of research you came across that you found? But particularly interesting or enlightening. Yes, there is one about AI, but I'm not going to use that example. So just to make it short, there is a study that's been done on employees using AI versus employees using. Not using it and then shown the productivity gains that it just found that it was absolutely fascinating and it really shows, but at an individual level or the company level, you may need to start thinking about how you're going to enable your workforce to start using those tools. But because we've talked a lot about AI, I'll let people read. I think about, one of the other things , that I didn't have any numbers about it, but I knew that it was coming is more about the what are the biggest opportunities? Because there's lots of people who want to go into product management and asking me, well, where should I start? Which companies should I focus on and all that. And with the rise in ethical and environmental concerns, there's a big growth of like climate tech and just, you know, going and seeing some, numbers and how. This is not something we think about because I think, we use. B2B tools in our job, we use some, application, but we don't necessarily think about climate tech. And I think that's an area which is growing a lot. I've seen lots of thought leaders on LinkedIn talking about this. There's now development of courses around that topic. How do you. Manage products that are sustainable for the environment. How do you build products that help us fight against climate change and all of that? I think that's an area that was very interesting to dig into. I

suppose to our previous episode of a deprecation of features.

Yes, you can do good things as well. Like saving some like data center costs and all of that. It's going to be good for your company and so far the environment. Yes.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, climate tech, isn't something that I have to admit I haven't looked into that deeply, but I will be, I will do that over the next couple of weeks because I'd be fascinated. Cause I know it is a conversation that I've been having for years with people around how much the. The carbon footprint of their products or how they're querying things, how they're bringing data back and how much of stuff is just happening because it's happening and not because it has to happen. And I think it's a really important topic and something which I believe we're going to be having, somebody come and join us in the next few months, actually, to do a few episodes on sustainability and how do we make sure that we're having a, If not a positive impact is a smaller negative impact as possible on our environment. So Maggie, our time is coming to an end. So I just want to thank you again for coming along, sharing these, emerging trends, helping people understand how we can future proof themselves if they're in product management or looking to get into product management, but also for organizations, how they can future proof the role too. Is there any. particular thing or like takeaway that you want to give to people before we wrap up?

Yeah, I would say one of them is around transformation. We've been talking about digital transformation for years, right? And one of the examples because I saw, your podcast has got Agile in the name. Agile has been like the manifesto was. More than 20 years ago. So we've been talking about those things for a long time. And the key takeaway is it actually never stops. Even if it's been around, some companies, one are still a bit behind, like they're not to that level of being able to. Correct course when they learn some new information, companies aren't fully digital with our customers or so in the way they work internally. So digital transformation is always a thing that keeps on moving forward and adapting to AI, for example, is a part of, digital transformation, but that should happen now. So wherever you are in your journey. It's not gonna stop, but it's, you can't say, Oh, we're done with our digital transformation, but that's it with future proof. No, you always have to keep pushing forward and it's okay if you and your company aren't at that level of maturity yet and you feel like you're a bit behind, there's lots of reasons. Why, but now is the time I think this year, 2024 is going to be a critical. You need to get on top of those trends. Otherwise you're going to be left behind left behind with your customers and your product, but also internally when you're looking to recruit talent. So I think now is a good time, especially at the beginning of the year to start thinking about how do we make our. Business future proof, how do we make all our talents, future proof and ready for the future of work. It's, not too late, but it has to happen now.

If you're not moving forward, then you're going backwards, is what I always think. Magalie, thank you so much for that. Brilliant tips, fantastic advice. I thank you very much for spending this time with me. We've had two episodes. First episode of a deprecation of features and this episode on future proofing the role of PM and your brilliant ebook. When will that ebook be available to the general public?

Yes, so it, is actually already available so you can download it on my website and for the month of January I'm taking some, parts of it and I'm posting on a daily basis on LinkedIn with the key takeaways, to get people to, to think. And yeah, you can just download it. It's free and if you've got some feedback or if you've got some challenges , I would love to hear from you.

It's a great thing to do, and now Magaly offering it for free, it's a superb service to love to our community. So thank you very much for that. Everybody, thank you very much for listening. We'll be back again next week, so be sure to follow us on your podcast platform of choice and we look forward to working you back next week with another guest. Thank you for listening. And Magley, thank you very much for coming on for these two episodes.

Thank you for having me